>> thank so much. >> thank you for having me. >> all the best. "a christmas story:the musical" running at madison square garden for three weeks, don't misstctctctcap. take your cyanide and gunite. if you wake up we will see you tomorrow. ♪ john: it is the season of giving. so where should you give? should you give this man money? what about thisan? >> thank you. john: actually, that's me. n't give money to beggars like me. governments must spend more. >> medicare, medicaid, social security. john: this government really helps the poor. >> everybody in cleveland. >> by any measurement this is nott working. john: i am glad mor people figure that out. >> commerce, entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of poverty. john: even some in the mainstre media. >> if you're waiting for the

government you'rgoing to ben for an awful long way. john: if they get it may be seen more people will realize there are better ways to give. real charity. that is our show tonight. ♪ >> and now. ♪ john: what is real charity? people are in trouble after a disaster or simply when people are poor. americans inead is to think amount and government help. after all, who will help those people is not governmt? libertarians argue that private charity would step in. individuals really choosing to help. but with enough of us up? most people say no. that is why liberals like newsday columnist say when it comes to helping theeed, that is mostly government's job.

>> well, listen, it would be great if people of reach into their hearts and solved all these will problems. that does not happen. in almost every single case where they're is a government program that exists because the private efforts. when y have 04 enough. john: that is because politicia said they were not enough and we could do better. i would argue that a government did not takes a much of our money the private sector would take carof these problems. >> hold on a second. let's get older aricans. the poorest sector of our society. something called social security camelot. medicare came along. all the people rlly do comparatively fairly well. we had hdred kids spread all across america. those numbers were cut dramatically in spite of the generous churches and nice people. >> programs are trillions in debt. unsustainable. >> maybe we have to tweak. t you can't throw away the idea.

the realitys we need government then there. john: food stamps, a couple billionaires' could find that all program by themselves. and a private charity would be better as saying who really needs the food help and to is giving the system. >> i would lovehat. you kn a billionaire who wants to pay to my think we would welcome that. john: did not step in because you're a big fat government is there. people say, oh, the government does that. >> here is the reality in real life. all these prat efforts are really important. generous people. we give a lot of money. when the chips are really down and theig thing happens, the typhoon hits the philippines, we love the red cross effort. but they don't have an aircraft carrier with marines on board and rescue helicopters. the u.s. military does. i want them steaming toward the philippines when that's-it's. john: i don't know what will happen. in haiti our government promised billions of dollars, billion of it is not done to the people.

the new york times said there were going to build 15,000 alums, latet target fewer than 3,000. >> your argument is that government sometimes does not do a perfect job. i concede that. john: i want to play along perversion of the clip earlier. to my left-wing colleagues were talking about how after a disaster faith bed charities work better and disaster relief and fema. >> there is fema and then there is the faith based fema. >> if you're waiting for the government you are going to be in for an awful long wait. >> talking about the government response after the tornado in oklahoma in may. now 30 churches banded together to help much more quickly and did a better job in government. this happened withatrina. fema was turning away walmart. people were trying to get water. sending its water to the wrong place. >> you're right. as you know, i am a native of new orleans.

there are some things that the province to well. all those kids, wonderful young people who came down, church groups, they did something much better than government. but they were still an awful lot of things that we needed government. remember how angry folks were. no one said stay away. john: walmart and private charities got there. >>aybe one of the things of the privates can do is be more nimble. if you are talking about rebuilding, i don't think you want the govnment to take a pass. john: i do. let's talk about the war on poverty. lyndon jnson said he would and poverty. here is where the war began. and sure enough i it dropped sharply the first five, seven years after that. to then it stopped improving. >> we teach people to be dependent.

that was happening before the war. americans were lifting themselves out of poverty. government continue the progress for five years and then stopped it. >> we should have been more generous, done the other things that government can do to help folks. john: government does not teach a dependency. >> i am not here saying government is profit. government has some bad things, clumsy, bureaucratic. there are things it does really well. hey, private folks, step up. john: these graphs of the test. can we put these up. john: the recession, but it goes up steadily. two lines referred to one is the number of people collecting in the other is the cost. we are teaching people to be passive. >> i will grant you that is something we want to avoid.

what is the solution from a look at the people and say we will take your food stamps a way? up for the best. >> limit the program some of the private sector stepped in. one more example is the rise of disability test people. straight out. you have fewer people doing manual labor, medicine is better , and more people are disabled. >> i am with you on that one. john: if you want to get rid of it. >> no, i don't want to get rid of it. certainly can look more closely as of the applications. john: cut it way back. there's a place near college of center, a government office supposedly to help people find jobs. i went there. people said, there are no jobs. we then went around 40 job offers, 28 and to build positions, one restaurant o ownr said, i would hire a dozen people live there wod just apply.

>> i would throw we take nine with no experience in trenton. johnand that the welfare of a steeple told us there are no jobs. >> there plenty of jobs. john: government jobs offices to encoage people to take welfare. as someby go and ask for help to see if it would help her get a job and they said, no, they just to reach for welfare and food stamps. >> againit is mucsmarter to have programs that encourage ople to work, don't reward laziness,. john: they all do that. >> i don't know. john: private charities and of any suppression did he tell. >> the answer can be to just cut it back a mechanic? john: get it back. and let the private sector in. we will stop there. thank y. atomize a pvate charity should replace government. what about the rest of the world? people assume global poverty is a problem.

it has to be addressed by government ging out foreign aid or maybe the wind. the u.s. and contradicts the title of my book by saying, yes, we, governments, working together c end poverty in just two years. while. two years. of crse 50 years ago lyndon johnson claimed his war on poverty would end poverty in america. the u.n. will do better. ted turner gave him a billion dollars for this. individual governments and squandered nearly a trillion dollars of foreign aid trying to lift people out of poverty in africa. i say squandered because aer they spent trillions for income per capita it went down. that is maybe because the foreign aid encourages dependency and afrian kleptocrats government steal much of the money. what is thelternative? michael fay says he has an

answ. what is yours? >> we are going straight to the port. cash transfers from you directly to them. no middleman, no leakage, no hidd costs. john: the charity, and you have raised about $6 million. just given 27,000 people-the thousand dollars each. >> that is exactly right. a thousd for the households. john: this sounds like a stupid idea. they will just spend it and then it won't have any. >> you are not the only one. the truth is thererer has been about a decade of research that shows the exact opposite. what are these people missing? a lot of them are missing the capital. we have the old expression teach a man to fish. the truth is they don't have fishing poles. john: so you allow themo buy a fishing pole or in this case this may have been a guy who got a motorcycle and use it for a taxi service. >> this is a used motorcycle

that he bought with cash and now provides tax to serces. john: he gives the people a cell phone with the money. >> that is the way we transfer the money. found the phone. if they don't have a phone them in a deal to get the money. john: and it is easier to check on them. >> we check, call them, talk to them regularly. john: people build metal roofs. the most popular thing. >> no charity. saves income, clean water, was malaria. we did not think of it, they did. jo: befor they had that they had at that's true fan is bad about a hundred dollars a year. john:nstead ty can start a business, another person had received training from anoth charity to be a welder. >> said he was standing there doing nothing. he did not have welding equipment.

hn: what mak you think this work? >> we have a decade of evidence, we have done ourwn third-party valuation. we kno goes up a monstrous level goes down, under follows. john: you do another odd thing. none of your charity board members works full-time for your charity. >> here is the great thing. if it is not working i would not lead to -- need to lie the right attitude my job. john: you could be more honest evaluating it. the charities delude themselves. >> well, i think people have passion and often implies eviden. john: i have hard time accepting iust criticize government p grams becau they don't teach people to take care of themselves. i guess giving cash once and knowing that it will keep coming is different. >> a onetime traforming event it does not matter who does it. matttters what they do.

why buy a cow when the person is to will then. john: to take care of it? look to make the choice. john: i hope it works. i' glad a lot of these experiments are going on. thank you. if you would like to keep this conversation going go to facebook or twitter and use that hasank. real charity. that people know what you think. coming up, president obama's says the way to help poor people is to give them a free cell phone. ♪ [ female annouer ] what if the xt big thing, isn't a thing at all? it's lots of things. all waking up. connecting to the global phenomenon

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♪ >> the government will pay for you to have a free cell phone with monthly minutes, no credit check and no deposit required. john: o free cell phone. 253 minutes. what the deal. this is to help poor people in need a lifeline. that is reasonable. this is a government program that began with ronald reagan. president obama expanded it, of course. and in just four years the costs tripled and will continue rice can.

>> a minority. you kw. he ge up. , no income, disability. john: the more free stuff you get the more you're eligible to get. but eligible is. what did you do? >> i went to all the welfare offices in manhattan and a couple in brooklyn and found out that there are people of thei approach you on the street as the if you have your free phone yet. outside the office. john: private entrepreneur. >> and not on welfare. i told them that. i would like to be buried at think a lot of the people would like to be. but that was enough. they ended up giving me not one,

not to, but three fe phones. john: the good news is someplace is turned down. >> yeah. they ended up. first of, you are not supposed to have duplicate files which i have already broken and will. there also supposed to check eligibility. they also did not catch the eye and multiple applicatis and and try to work power to the system again and again. john: and fcc audit, they found 41 percent of the recipients never demstrated that they were eligible. >> that's about 6 million people. thwhat you really see is the phone companies have a very perverse incentive to push those bonds and on the street. they get $9.25 per customer per month for this program. thetreet vendors -- john: is paid fo out of your phone bill. if you bothered to read the fine print, there is something called the universal service charge. this was under ronald reagan, make sure everybody and a phone line.

universal service. a dollar and two out of every race home built. bison i tnk that most taxpayers don't know what. i went out d investigated. i didn't know. john: bore people talk to their families. >> the phone companies of the bad guys in this. this is a huge business. the mexican billionaire, one of the richest people in the world. john: he may be the richest. >> csn bill gates compete. but he got in 2011 alone half a billion dollars from this program. so what turned out to be welfare for the poor is actually corporate welfare plan in simple hn: and what about my obnoxious question. you don't want to help the poor? >> well, i think maybe there would be justification for a land line. as with a program srted out as, but anytime you have perverse incentives for companies to go and no phones combined with the very poor

oversight you have to ask yourself, you creating a situation in which fraud and abuse can just compound? that is what we have. john: it should not surprise anyone that government charity is susceptible to fud. the contrtors doing the work. no one's money. the mo they give outhe more they get to keep. they get a commission on each give away. the cellphone charities, $2 billion. think about the hundreds of billions spent on medicare and medicaid. much more from there. people work out with all this stuff. one man alone spent $20 million on this diamond jewelry, also a fleet of luxury cars, one after the other. all of whi she got because government paid mlions for medical treatme that never happened. government health is just extra susceptible to abuse. >> and is definitely what i found. was surprised that i was able to get three of them in violation a

pretty much every program wall, and if i can do it beingomeone he tells the truth, just a man from the people. actually willing to abuse th program. john: private companies get ripped off. but they have more of an incentive to check. it's their own money. >> thas right. georgia is actually doing reform within the states to try to see if they can mess with that fundamental flaw in incentive structure. there will start charging $5 for consumers. they have to pay $5 spirit there less likely to god and by. john: thank you. coming up, better ways tell people. ♪ this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one.

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john: one of the richest people in the world is warren buffett. is the jeep? he is one of many billionaire sue until recently gave very little to crity. he used his money to try to make more money. he said he would give it away when he died. his fellow billionaire ted turner told me buffett was being cheap. >> she should give some away now john: turner just made a big splash by giving a billion dollars to the wind. now he said he wanted to shame other rich people into giving more. >> what he said is bad and the stupid. john: that was his answer. >> what he should do is take his money and invested. he can help people in the other better way into invested and have the companies in building in plans that creating the investment creates joband wealthnd products for other people. john: really? is it better if a money maker uses money to make more rather than give to charity? i think so. add to that question back to ted

turner. >> bill gas says, and get it making money. john: that try to argue this, but he wasn't ying it. john: and i wrong in thinking that i am happy if he g gives tt the charity? >> when you be happier if he did? you alleg -- this is what people don't like these men. i know your dirty tricks. there is nothing more say. goodbye. i am walking out. john: he did not want to talk about it. let's take that same question to an economist to rise a free-market institute at texas tech. >> i am not bothered if they don't give more of it away. they make their money by making allies that. they are helping people. often that is the best with a can help. john: and then make a profit than they hire people, those jobs live on for years. people use it to educate there kids and feed their family.

there is a multiplier. these guys may not even begin dexterity. know they're good at making money. stick to what your specialty is. >> it's about the results. if leeson to do the things that we want them to do. of course the real reason is that creating the products and services that make our lives better, but as a byproduct they create jobs that make other people better off. it is what is fundamentally responsible for the high standard of living we enjoy. john: said most of them, i would say to my don't feel good about all the wealth they create in their business and guiltily give to charity. even bill gates is now working full time o charity he says he thinks most charity has to come from government. >> a lot of the money that is supporting these causes is

coming from the private sector, people like you and less from the government. john: governments are the backbone of this. >> no, no, no. he is good as computers, not it is social policy. just last week h a research paper presented about the great chicago fire of 1871. what happened afterward, there was no fema. it was prite and civil society organizations the banded together and help get people out of the city who lost their homes, brought in new shelter, clothing. judging from what i was hearing from my work to haggle a lot better than fema of ordering people when they can and cannot go and buts in the process to behalf of. john: a recent edition of forbes magazine, the richesteople's list featured philanthropy. so how they are now reading billionaires' by how much they give. a kind of want my heart. let's have a competition.

>> there is nothing wrong with people giving money to the causes a thinker valuable. not every good or service will be produced for profit. some of it can come from this segment of society, and it's fine that we recognize that as long as we don't demonize thos who aren't doing it and think there's something wrong with them pursuing profit because ere is not. that osmanli makes us better off john: there are these tycoons from previous years cornelius vanderbilt and john d. rockefeller and people who vilify them. they did some charity work. they were evil robbers. >> they fundamentally transformed the lives of americans and raising livg standards. rockefeller brought us well and made profits. the way, he probably is also responsible for saving the whales because he pushed down the price of oil it was no longer profitable to how best to extinction henryord makes jeep

automobiles. it does not matter that is motive was profits. he made automobiles affordable for the average middle-class american. the same is true of most of these so-called robber barons of the late 19th and early 20th century. john: thank you. up next, if i put on a fake beard nd chemistry of people give me mon [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd. ♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting us know who's coming. the carts keep everyone on the right track. the power tools iroduce themselves. all the bits and bulbs keep themselves stocked. and the doors even handle the checkout so we can work on that thing that's stuck in the thing. [ female announcer ] today, cisco is connecting the internet of everything. so everyone goes home happy. wow...look at you. i've always tried to give it my best shot.

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♪ john: it will come to an end. the sooner the better the billions we spend on foreign aid. much of which is squandered or olen. i agree with ron paul and his son, the senator. we should stop almost all foreign aid. the one libertaans say that people need angry.

>> cut off american assistance to these democratic efforts. pull the eight out. what the heck. less than 1 percent of the entire budget of the united states of america. john: it's pretty close to 1%. $35 million. i say we can't afford that. gregory adams runs of sam's 80 effectively says we should spend more. a giant charity it tries to fight poverty over the world. i say, fine. if you want to do that, you raise the money he believes government out of it. >> the issue is that there are some things that charities just can't do. despite the impact that they have around the world, and we are proud of the work that we do with money raised from average americans, there is only so much that we can do with our own projects. some places government needs to step in. john: all right. government needs to make sure aids workers and of being murdered on the way to where they're going.

and i suld s that you don't take government money from the united states. to other countries. but you call for government to spend more on foreign aid. why when so much has been squandered? >> it is important to know that we're calling for more of the right kind of a. john: this is going to be the right kind. >> there are some things that we think the united states government is doing tha we thk is not a good use of money. prticular, food aid is in desperate need of reform. we miss about half of the value of every dollar that we spend because we require it to be shipped in american vessels, delivering food rather than buying food at the source. john: you also wanted to spend more. >> we want more of the right kind. there are good programs, the millennium celebration that invest in success. the best performing countries rather than subsidizing failure. we want to see more aid given

directly to helping small farmers grow more of their own food and you want to see more aid used to support the anti-corruption efforts. john: but what are the odds that that will happen? that the aids support the corrupt dictators as much as half the food aid center at the molly is diverted to corrupt ccntractors, is like militants, local un staff. >> somalia is a difficult environment. john: i will go on. zimbabwean authorities confiscated truck filled with american food aid for school kids and handed it out to supporters of president robert mcgowan boy and a political rally. >> this is one of the problems when the only tool you have is bags of food. john: but by calling for more government aid you are calling for more of the aid that despite all the promises of reform has ended up in the hands of corrupt dictators. >> we are not just calling for

more government aid. john: i understand that, and you do some brave work. why do you call for it at all? >> a lot of misconceptions. e of the biggest is that most u.s. assistance actually goes to governments. in fact, that is not true. most goes to u.s. based charities, ngos, conactors. john: and the u.n. >> there is portion that goes. we are very clear that they are not the solution. people on the solution to poverty. john: let's hear from an african entrepreneur. a business and american. but she tried operating a business in her own company -- country of senegal. you agree. >> the combination. foreign aid. government. >> i have a very hard time. the african union itself is admitting it is being siphoned through corruption.

john: the swiss bank account. >> swiss bank accounts, real estates in the south of france, the son of the dictator of a equatorial guinea. he was busted by french customs. his plan was intercepted, and they found in the plane 27 fancy cars. i don't know how many furry some bentleys, rolls-royces. john: the only way to stop that is said keep government out of it. you can get a bunch of people who want to give their own money they won't give it to dictators. >> well, not of governments of the same. we actually work with a lot of anti-corruption and human rights activists in countries around the world who are actually working to try to getheir governments to govern more accountable. they're interested in u.s. standing with them in joining this fight. too often we take such an approach to u.s assistance, we try to make it -- we focus on much and a boarding corruption these activists in telling us that they want to us stand

together to fight corruption which means that we need to be their standing with them in solidarity working together. john: why the need government aid? why the need government aid? >> govnment said the only tool that can work to solve some of these accountabily problems. it is like asking why the bears need an offensive line. at some point you need these other tools. it will be entrepreneurs who solve the problem of african poverty. but you also need government to do other things. john: you need governments. >> unfortunately at least in most countries in africa government has been the problem. they basically say, as an entrepreneur government does nothing but slow me down on a regula basis. officials bribing me all along. the fact that my truck is parked on a regular basis. and i have to pay a single time in the delays.

john: government aid will help fight the corruption. >> i'm sorry. the more you're feeding this huge government the more you choke me from the other end. that is a least the phenomenon that i am awareness of. and the ore you give to them the more that is what happens to me. john: we do think that there is role that government can play. in a lot of the places we actually find there is a government deficit. people have to deal with -- john: why do you believe government aid would provide that? has not so far. >> that is actually not true to a lot of success stories. a lot of african countries that the scene. john: t racine them. thank you. coming up, why our man came up to me on the street and said are you john stossel?

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♪ john: someone once came up to me on the street in new york and said, are you john stossel?

has said the spd said to my hope you guys in. so what is this hatred about? it turned out he was what people call and anti-poverty lawyer and did things like sue landlods to stop them from evicting people. in his world here in new york capitalism is the enemy, and the only thing that keeps poor people from being totally impresse his government. so because i call for less government and evil. this town, we libertarians are selfish people.and a good guy ia bleeding heart liberal. so what is this website about? bleeding heart libertarians. talks about social justice and free-market. georgetown university philosophy professor regularly contributes to the site. why? >> the idea is to recapture the

soul of libertarianism. what they can and should dos embrace the concept of social justice. john: what does the phrase even mean? i am for social justice. >> right. john: for a lot of people it does not mean anything. it just means socialism. there is a real meaning. course of institutions that you expect other people to live by. john: laws, property rights, family rules come anything like that, one of the tests of those institutions should be that you expect when people live and abide by them attend to produce good consequences for everybody. you can show whether you care about this by asking a question like this. imagine that marxists were right. imagine there were a disaster, they left the overall majority of people destitute. would you still advocate markets?

i think most libertarians would say i would at least have some reservations. the fact that they work matters in the justification. if you think that the new advocate whether you know not whathilosophers are calling thsocial justice. john: i'm rand said that do not consider charity a major virtue. selfish. >> what she means is not what most people mean. even if she thinks that i don think she speakfor most people most are humane, they give to charity, the care that markets work and their work for everybody. the minimum wage, if you did not think that matter w would you argue that because on one. you don't bea you say that the minimum wage causes unemployment among the most laura will people in society and that is part of th reason to oppose it which means that you care of the consequences for the poor. john: the website, bleeding heart libertarian, categories like advocating nurses caring versus helping.

>> this explains what is going on with people when they think that libertarians are selfish. if you are on the lefty probably believe that your policies are the only sensible expression of benevonce. you probably think they must disagree with your values and only care of their pocketbks. that is never really make sense because we have real arguments but also advocacy is cheap. i advocate that we have a 90% marginal tax rate, income over 100,000, if i advocate that it does not cost me anythg. if i give money to charity -- john: governments should have a bigger anti-poverty program. >> that costs you nothing but you get the warm glow of altruism when you say you advocate that. put your money where your mouth is. does it actually does something. i know your concern. if you're advocating taking income from other people or yourself and that is all you do your not really showing me that you care. john: it is easy to be generous

with other people's money. that is what politicians do. >> that's right. john: thank you. coming up, my take on real charity. ♪ [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd.

♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting usnow who's coming. the carts keep everyone on the right track. the power tools iroduce theelves. all the bits and bulbs keep themselves stocked. and the doors even handle the cckout so we can rk on that thing that's stuck in the thing. [ female announcer ] today, cisco is connecting the internet of everything. so everyone goes home happy. ♪ john: i used to be pretty cheap. my mom told me, if you don't save your money you will freeze

in the dark. so i saved. but when my career took off and i started getting paid money to make speeches i decided to donate the money to charity, and it cnged my life. i realize that i like giving money away. it makes me happy. research on what makes people happy backs that up. on average people who give to charity, whether they give them money or just time, they are happier. so death. it is did for us and get for them. though that depends whom you give to. i put on a fake brd and tried begging in new york city. people gave me money. they gave me money when my cardboard sign said thomas and cold, and even gave when i chased it to needed bier. thank you. thank you. john: w when they asked givers y they gave people said things like this. >> he looks pretty neat, i

suppose. john: i just beg for an hour, but i did well. but did this for an eight hour day and would have made $90 a 23,000 year. tax-free. that is the reason social workers say not to give to beggars. often it is a scam plan very often you are an enabling. by giving cash to subsidize the biggest drug or alcohol habit. by not giving you may encourage them to give real help. a few respectable charities illicit on the stree. but most were begging or running scams. >> i need your help. i am homeless. john: new york attorney general said this pitch from a group calling itselunited homeless is a scam. its director keeps nearly all the money comes bins it on things like his weight watcher bills. i hear you keep most of the money. >> we are homeless people.

john: the pages it is going to shelters. >> am i supposed to run a nonprofit and not get money? >> all the people donate absolutely know where the money goes. john: it is hard to find out wheryour charity money reall goes. we can check charity rating services like charity navigator. it is better than nothing. the ratings are not perfect. me charities are not perfect, and rating services sometimes did oned. i give my charity ney to groups that i can check out myself, a group that rehabs ex-con and attics. i decided they do a good job because i could see these men. they call them men in blue, ready, willing, ae. the clean-air bill york city streets. what is hot is that they do is bring in a step in look cheerful and work fast. i thought whoever is working with these guys has done something right, taught them to take pride in work.

i give them money in a couple of other groups that back and watch. whili give to what i think are good charities, we should not forget about the people of, capitalists, on this once. but job creators do much more good for the world that politicians. and more even than that do-goode' worki for charity. i am delighted that the singer bought of figure that out after spending years calli for government to spend more in foreign-aid flop. now he says the best hope for the four is free markets. >> preaching capital. >> sometimes i hear mysf, and i just cannot believe it. commerce is real. just a spgap. >> commerce and on to panera capitalism takes more people out of poverty. we know that. john: politicians don't know that. many americanson't know it. it is time that they learned.

entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out ofoverty and a never well. that is our show. see you next week. ♪ t. ♪ ♪ gerri: hello, everybody. i'm gerri willis, and welco to a special edition of "the willis report." if you bought something this holiday season that you are rethinking or already know that somebody will want to return it to me how you do that? personal finance expert very gibbons joins me now.i here is what typically happens. a lot of markdowns. i am worried their return al policies will be tougher thaneto ever.ugher th >> this is when you have the ee extended policy.h, but they give you a longer t